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At the risk of inciting half of the CPD to go on a squirrel-kicking rampage, submitted for your consideration. Here is the FOP posting cited in the story: You're invited to assist... Detective Joe Frugoli, FOP Hall Presumably there are cops out there that are as outraged at this as one would hope. P.S. I am related to at least two cops and support the law.
Cops Fundraise For Alleged Vehicular Homicide Drunk – Cop
chicagobreakingnews.com - 4 weeks ago - 527 views
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The relative and Frugoli (for now) are both members of the FOP and afforded the same rights and privileges of any other member so denying them posting on the website or the event would have violated their contract. The union cannot afford to pay lawyers to defend them against a clear violation of his union membership. How hard is THAT to understand?
Criminal friend?
The detective's protections under the Bill of Rights/U.S. Constitution are to be thrown in the trash as he has already been tried and convicted by the ignorant hypocrites here. Why bother have ANY trial, let alone a legal fund?? I, for one, am starting a fund for the purpose of reimbursing the home and business owners in Chicago who's homes, businesses and structures were criminally and needlessly damaged/"tagged" and spray painted for years by the two "alleged" prolific "taggers"(professional property defacers) killed as a result of this police detective's horrible decision.
The relative who initiated the event and Frugoli (for now) are both members of the FOP and afforded the same rights and privileges of any other member, so denying them posting on the website or letting them use the facilities for a small event would have violated their membership contract. The union cannot afford to pay lawyers to defend them against a clear violation of his union membership that they would lose.
How hard is THAT to understand?
The event was reportedly attended by less than 15 of the detective's personal friends and family. Actually, the personal friends and family who will attend are simply trying to support this man, (who made a horrible and tragic decision to drive drunk which none of US has ever done,....right? *hypocrite cricket sound effect*) resulting in the death of two men, in his hour of need. Rather than turning their backs on a friend or family member who has done something wrong and horrible, they have decided that they "HATE THE SIN but LOVE THE SINNER"...I know, I know..A highly unusual and complicated philosophy that these vile, immoral and disgusting people have but they feel its important to show they value him as a human being regardless of his mistakes in life.
I know WE would never do something as despicable and heinous as these horrible people for OUR closest friends or a family member if they did something like this. Yuck. We all have much more CLASS and RIGHTEOUS causes to support. Right??
I, for one, am starting a fund for the purpose of reimbursing the home and business owners in Chicago who's homes, businesses and structures were criminally and needlessly damaged/"tagged" and spray painted for years by the two "alleged" prolific "taggers"(professional property defacers) killed as a result of this police detective's horrible decision. I invite you to do so as well.
Criminal friend?
The detective's protections under the Bill of Rights/U.S. Constitution are to be thrown in the trash as he has already been tried and convicted by the ignorant hypocrites here like you. Why bother have ANY trial, let alone a legal fund??
So, you rationally come to a conclusion that the fact 13 or 15 people attend a fundraiser (and how many of those were actually police officers?...5?...9?) and because it was held at the FOP hall is representative of how CHICAGO POLICE OFFICERS SUPPORT FRUGOLI??
And that is nine police officers out of 12,500???!!!!
Wow.
You're the smartest guy. We all have a LOT to learn from you.
Nothing on second city cop....yet...
Friends of the two deceased artists are incensed and planning a protest for the event:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/chicagostreetart/discuss/72157622469872503/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/chicagostreetart/discuss/72157622586752098/
Imagine what Royko would have done with this.... Kass is still too busy writing about "hopium" and the like.
Royko would have looked at the politics that has protected the troubled eggs on the street and how things could have gotten so out of control with certain people. It doesn't mean he'd find a solution, but no doubt he would have dug deeper.
We don't have anyone of his stature today. I agree with your take on Royko's probable reaction. Royko had something else - his own connections. He got lots of calls from "little birds."
One thing that both Royko and Kass seem to have in common is a lot of connections with the blue collar crowd (which also literally includes many CPD). I'm not talking the higher ups and political appointments but the ones out there on the street doing the work. That's where you can hear a lot of the complaints about what's really going on. And yeah, Kass has this too. Cops would talk to him and no doubt they do because he's considered someone who has gone to bat for them in the media. Maybe he's a tad too addicted to hopium issues to break away.
I think Rich Miller cleans Kass' clock on most days, but Rich is not primarily a newspaper columnist, he's a political blogger covering the whole state. Kass has done some wild stuff (the quest for the shower in City Hall was awesome) but he seems kind of hit-or-miss to me. Royko almost always hit the bull's eye. It's gotta be tough following that act.
I thought that it was this guy's friends and family that were hosting this benefit, not the police. Most of the cops I know are really disgusted by this guy (one of them was friends with one of the victim's sons).
You would think so. Maybe the event will bomb. If his friends are giving him a farewell party, fine, but they should say so. This looks like they're raising legal defense funds so he can minimize damage or even (crazy as it sounds) keep his job. The guy's career is toast. Do you think someone's going to want to partner with him? Yikes. He needs honest counseling, bad.
I agree - they should distance themselves from this guy as much as possible. It's not as if he didn't already have a questionable pattern of behavior. When these people were killed, didn't some reporter allude to "connections" this guy had (politics)? Politics in the CPD really can stink - jamming up some good guys/gals and protecting a skunk or two.
Politics like you describe are everywhere - at least everywhere I've been. Not that I'm cool with that situation. I think he might have somewhat influential friends. If the guy is remorseful and wants to get straight, ok, but it doesn't sound like it. Remember that guy Beck that shot the panhandler? I'm not crazy about panhandling street people, but that's no reason to blow someone away and then drive off like it never happened (allegedly).
They may be everywhere, but we are talking about politics that are interfering with PO's who are sworn to protect and serve. I've seen more than one good PO get jammed up due to politics, and heard some bizarre stories that seem unbelievable.
Politics are for elected office. What passes for politics in the workplace are mostly the people with antisocial personality disorder chasing out the more normal people.
I've heard of guys getting jammed up because they wouldn't do their boss's bidding, which was to make the political appointees look good at the expense of other PO's. Antisocial? Or sociopathic?
My understanding is that APD and sociopathic are about the same, just maybe a matter of degree. Sometimes the system overrules personal feelings, however. In that case maybe the system is sociopathic. An interesting book is "Virus Of The Mind" by Richard Brodie; in it he talks about how ideas and customs take on lives of their own. But I was talking about people trying to enforce their dominance in the workplace, purely for their own personal gain, without regard for anything or anyone else. And getting away with it. Happens all the time.
Rhetorically, might that have been you?" However civilians may criticize apparent support for Detective Frugoli's alleged conduct, has the Fraternal Order of Police union simply acknowledged that there are many more troubled officers on the streets?
No, I never got blind drunk, smashed my car into another, killing several people, and then stumbled away like nothing happened (allegedly). Might that have been you?
Since I don't drink I wouldn't qualify for a candidate for drunk driving. If you recall, this guy had a history of troubled behavior, not only this fatal occurence.
The big question is, even when good officers get messed up, where's the help for them? There's EAP but sometimes a person needs to have help to shake off the darkness and demons from the traumas they deal with day in and day out.
I thinking his friends are all cops.
Yeh, and maybe they've been trying to get this guy to straighten up his act. But it's too late now, it seems to me. He'll be a former cop soon, you would think. In a perfect world he'll pull out of it and move on to some other life.
Throwing stones in a glass house, Windy Citizens?
Announcement on their website placed there by a relative, not the FOP themselves, and, I am sure, will only be attended by the detective's friends and family. Actually, the personal friends and family who will attend are simply trying to support this man, (who made a horrible and tragic decision to drive drunk which none of US has ever done,....right? *hypocrite cricket sound effect*) resulting in the death of two men, in his hour of need. Rather than turning their backs on a friend or family member who has done something wrong and horrible, they have decided that they "HATE THE SIN but LOVE THE SINNER"...I know, I know..A highly unusual and complicated philosophy that these vile, immoral and disgusting people have but they feel its important to show they value him as a human being regardless of his mistakes in life.I know WE would never do something as despicable and heinous as these people for OUR closest friends of a family member if they did something like this. Yuck. We all have much more CLASS and RIGHTEOUS causes to support. Right?? The detectives protections under the Bill of Rights/U.S. Constitution are to be thrown in the trash as he has already been tried and convicted by the ignorant hypocrites here. Why bother have ANY trial, let alone a legal fund?? I, for one, am starting a fund for the purpose of reimbursing the home and business owners in Chicago who's homes, businesses and structures were criminally and needlessly damaged/"tagged" and spray painted for years by the two prolific "taggers"(professional property defacers) killed as a result of this police detective's horrible decision. In no way did ANYONE deserve to die, but at least someone could have the guts to offer that the victims own actions played some part in their deaths. I am optimistic that the vocal and righteous supporters of and the "tagger"/graffiti "artists" or "tagging community" of Chicago and Cook County like the ones who PROTESTED at the fundraiser Friday night, would be willing to donate as well. It does not in any way excuse what horrible decision this detective made, but the two men killed had been driving prior to pulling over partially IN the right lane of traffic to sleep off how drunk THEY WERE, according to family, state police investigators and sources. The fact is that the many gallons and containers of paint, paint thinner aka ACETONE that the two men used in their occupations as "taggers/vandals/professional property defacers" in the rear of their vehicle QUICKLY ignited and engulfed the car in flames. I am sure their heavily intoxicated states could have contributed to their inability to exit the vehicle after it was struck. NO ONE in this incident was totally innocent. It was a tragedy UPON a tragedy. Hopefully the supporters of the "taggers/vandals/professional property defacers" consider donating towards the reimbursing the years of cleanup of their crimes. May truth and justice prevail.
Welcome to Windy Citizen. Thanks for commenting.
I was with you until that line. Sure, the tagger guys were a nuisance to the owners of the walls they were tagging, but everyone does stuff that's questionable. The question is whether their questionable stuff had anything to do with their deaths and I just don't see how it does. In the eyes of the law, they got hit by a drunk guy.
This page on duiattorney.com has a rundown on Frugoli's history. It appears that proactive help was called for more than the retroactive help his friends are trying to give now. According to the account on that site, Frugoli even rear-ended a CPD police cruiser and kept his driver's license and job! This is not about Frugoli, it's about the CPD not facing up to its responsibilities in an unpleasant situation.
There seem to be allegations by nineteenpaulie that there are mitigating circumstances - that the victims were undesirables in the midst of illegal activities. First of all, this is an outlandish rationalization. Secondly, the detective could not have had preknowledge of these circumstances before he plowed into their vehicle, unless he was performing surveillance on them. This is just goofy logic. If we extend this logic, the detective should be rewarded for taking these undesirables off the street by killing them in this manner, something this is pretty far from reality.
nineteenpaulie joined Windy Citizen around 3 AM this morning. That suggests insomnia to me. Given the sort of rationalizations he makes in his comment, I'm guessing he's troubled about this situation. I hope he can talk to someone that is objective and caring and that can help him work through what is happening. This accident happened because Detective Frugoli was in denial that his actions were dangerous and irresponsible. It happened because his friends and professional associates were in denial that Detective Frugoli needed help - and discipline. Now his friends are raising money so he can fight the charges in court. I suppose he has to fight the charges in court because his situation is so dire now. But this is the time that the denial should stop. The lesson is there to be learned. And his friends should learn the lesson as well. Most of all, his sons, if he has sons, and his nephews, if he has nephews, should see that we all have to face reality and not deny our responsibilities to society.
They are sleeping off a drunk half-parked in a lane of traffic on the Dan Ryan after a night of criminally damaging other people's property with a trunk full of flammable paint thinner etc., used in commission of their crimes (which are well documented: see flickr and search afroe and evol.) and you were with me until that line?
Okay.
At least I know where you're coming from.
On what are you basing your assertions regarding the conduct of the deceased on the night of the collision? Are you a police officer with access to the incident report? If you are making inferences, which would seem likely unless you accompanied the deceased on that night, you might want to back off on some of your assertions. As Joe Friday said, "Just the facts." Or was that his sidekick, Bill Gannon, that said that?
Disaffected,
Since all you want are facts from ME, I was wondering if you were going to have to begin playing by the same rules?
Let's just say I am basing my comments on a lot more than a sensationalized overtly anti law enforcement biased DUI Lawyer selling/referring website and using their hearsay and baseless innuendo/allegations as fact, as you have.
The website, at least, states Frugoli was "accused" of a prior DUI incident and you quote it as "a rundown of Frugoli's history", when in fact, "accused" does not equal "allegation" let alone CHARGED because he was not.
The site says "accused" several times but you SOMEHOW refer to the baseless innuendo/allegations as some kind of factual "account".
Again, understandably, because you are also somehow able to draw (from the time I joined/posted on this site), that I am an "insomniac" and "troubled" and some sort of silly/smarmy baiting that I am "troubled about this situation. I hope he can talk to someone that is objective and caring and that can help him work through what is happening."
Wacky and even wackier was somehow inferring that Frugoli was doing a surveillance on the men or some intent on Frugoli's part.
Wow.
Let' take a quick spin down "outlandish rationalization" road, shall we, Mr. Logic?
(A little fact, a lot of common sense and logic regarding what a "reasonable person" would believe.
That is something, Disaffected, that you'll have to PROVE to me you are.)
A quick Google search of "afroe evol", (the tagging/street names of the two deceased) yields countless links to both photos and videos of the two men's countless acts of criminal defacement of property including many many that appear to be felony chargeable acts...Hmmm?..
Common sense will tell you the overwhelming majority of these types of crimes are done late at night and in the very early hours of the morning. Best to avoid being observed and arrested, huh?..
It is obvious from the hundreds of photos and videos that the amount of paint, painting materials and equipment (flammable liquids?) required would most surely leave room for not much else in the trunk of a car that size.
Are acetone or toluene FLAMMABLE? Hmmm..
Looking at all the photos and videos, it seems a large majority of them depict the two men drinking alcohol. There have been many reports of alcohol bottles or cans were found in the burned out vehicle. The two men, from all accounts, were either drunk/passed out/sleeping in the vehicle. Regardless...They were both at least seated in he vehicle at impact.
Were they "fixing a flat" or "repairing" the car?
Logic would tell you that was unlikely if they were seated in the vehicle.
Seated and drinking the alcohol in the car while waiting on help from a relative or friend or a tow?
Possible? Hmmm?...Likely?...I'd say...yes.
I'd say that the overwhelming and horrific sense of guilt and more that Frugoli or you or myself would feel knowing we were responsible for ending these two men's lives(and an inevitable prison sentence) would be overwhelming and I'm sure the "denial" stage for him is a pretty distant memory of a time in his life that you won't be able to bring back for him whether you say it three times in a paragraph or thirty three.
Up until this accident, I'm sure, he had enough "responsibility to society" to do a very difficult job that people wouldn't wish on their worst enemy for people he didn't know. I am sure that you are the director of some non for profit or something similar and that you are ALWAYS doing for society.
Hmmm...?
Those are inferences.
You still seem to be making ad hominem attacks and selectively interpreting the known facts of the fatal crash. My point in sharing this story was that this fundraiser was happening, the circumstances were a little bit odd, and that's about it. Detective Frugoli seems to have ruined his life and ended the lives of two others, which is no occasion for gloating or celebration. It does seem reasonable that the man would want to raise money for the probably inevitable avalanche of legal fees. It seems to me that the citizens of Chicago also reasonably have an interest in the outcome of this sad case. To impugn the victims and imply that this situation will blow over is rather naive thinking in my opinion, and also an insult to the citizens of Chicago and the American legal system. If someone wanted to know my wish for the outcome of this case, it would be for justice and as much reconciliation as is possible under the circumstances. I would hope that the CPD does the right thing, whatever it is. And I would hope that Det. Frugoli moves forward with his life and keeps a positive attitude.
Disaffected,
Facts and logic and few inferences.
Which, AGAIN, is a million times more factual, responsible and logical than stating in your first reply that, solely because I posted at 3am, I am "troubled", have "insomnia" and need psychological help. (Though working while most other people are sleeping is a bit "crazy" at times.)
Obviously you are projecting, or just feeling very defensive.....and that's **OKAY**.
Seemingly, again, you have a problem with self observation in whining about "ad hominem attacks", when YOU were the one who set the precedent in your first post.
Got Paranoid...?
Whoops!
I passed an inference. Excuse me.
Here's a few simple questions and I look forward to reading your honest and forthright answers.
If Frugoli were NOT a COP...NOT a member of THE CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT...would you feel the same way about this case or ever had posted on the topic in the first place?
Would this case have garnered the media attention it has?
Would people have such a serious objection to an "average Joe" (non-police officer) receiving donations from family, friends and coworkers in an attempt to have the best legal defense possible?
Wouldn't you want the same for yourself or family member or close friend, regardless of THEIR occupation?
Does and should Frugoli have the same constitutional rights as any other U.S. citizen? If not, why?
Do you feel this case somehow is somehow symbolic of something larger?
NOTE:
(Most supporters of the victims view tagging/criminal defacement/damage to property, which are crimes in all fifty states, as being acceptable, normal behavior to be glorified and even admired, some even calling the criminal activity "art". Tagging and the tagging/"street art" community seemingly populated by a large percentage of "poseurs and hipsters" who evidently believe "their" crimes, or "street art" as they'd rather call it, are acceptable. Criminal psychologists see that as a common behavior among criminal offenders who somehow rationalize their crimes as "okay".
.............Versus the cops, CPD, pigs, Chicago Police, law enforcement, "THE MAN!", the establishment, etc. etc.)
Frugoli is/was a Chicago police detective. That is not a secret. Are the alleged depicted behaviors/crimes, lifestyles and occupations of the victims somehow "off limits" for myself or any other citizen of Chicago and should they have no impact on how public opinions have been formed regarding this case?
Very few of these facts will be coming out during the criminal trial of Frugoli, barring some plea agreement, I'd guess. The overwhelming majority of them will come to light during any civil actions and motions brought forth on behalf of the victims.
You stated that "the citizens of Chicago also reasonably have an interest in the outcome of this sad case" and that what I have said or pointed out is "naive thinking in my opinion, and also an insult to the citizens of Chicago and the American legal system."
Please explain how you believe that someone who wantsto hear ALL the facts and evidence of this case and how it all ties together is "naive" and "an insult to the citizens of Chicago and the American legal system."
Explain how the citizens of Chicago and the "American legal system" would be able to make a fair and just decision based solely on half the facts of the case.
Explain in a logical, reasonable and factual manner how the fundraiser for Frugoli, (which served no alcohol and was attended by less than fifteen friends and family members), was an "occasion for gloating or celebration" and what YOU observed first hand to support that conclusion.
You claim that I have "impugned" the victims. Explain how I have done so by merely explaining a google search of the victim's that provided links to hundreds of videotapes of the victim's and their alleged/purported criminal conduct including photographs, eyewitness accounts of the victim's close friends and co-offenders of the victim's alleged actions and behavior and the conclusion of how many misdemeanors and felonies they likely allegedly have committed, based on those links and a cursory knowledge of criminal law?
You also state that I "imply that this situation will blow over (&) is rather naive thinking in my opinion, and also an insult to the citizens of Chicago and the American legal system." Please explain in a logical, reasonable and factual manner how I have done so.
As I've said, I look forward to reading your honest, truthful and forthright answers.
(Please read each question at least four to eight times each before answering them to ensure you fully understand each question.)
-Paulie
You clearly don't understand most of what I was saying so I cannot respond to your concerns. Also, you clearly don't understand how the law works, because if you did you would know that whatever alleged activities the deceased engaged in are of no bearing on the intoxicated vehicular homicide charges. I mention that a reasonable person would understand that Det. Frugoli will be needing funds for legal defense regardless of his culpability. The flurry of demands that you make on me (to respond to your arguments) also indicate that you are angry and feel the need to be in a position of dominance over someone - anyone - to feel in control. That's your issue. Most people have stopped posting to this share because to them the issue is old news. I am in agreement with them. But I will respond to one issue, which has been in play the whole time. You do try to defend the detective by impugning the two dead men. That is clearly not something that would be allowed in a well-run courtroom, and I would hope that any readers also would not be suckered by that line of bull. I would also like to correct something I wrote yesterday, tangential to that issue. I retract my comment that if they were parked in the middle of the Dan Ryan, sleeping on the roof of their vehicle, it would not be relevant. I would think that such a situation would be relevant owing to the increased danger that they would be posing to themselves and others; that would likely be allowed in evidence. But the vehicle was parked on the shoulder, and if it did jut out into the right lane, that would be obscured by the impact of the crash and should not be provable in court, I would think. Perhaps there are skid marks. We'll have to wait and see what comes out in court (if, as you mention, there isn't a plea bargain).
Strangely enough, there is one circumstance that Paulie's rationalization would work: if Osama bin Laden had been in that car, instead of some small-time taggers, the detective would have been eligible for a $25,000,000 reward and most likely no homicide culpability. But what are the odds of that happening?
Also, I would like to point out that Paulie's views are, to our knowledge, his own. He apparently is a friend or relative of Detective Frugoli, since he seems to have been at the fundraiser. But we should take his comments as his own, and not those of the detective.
Your knowledge of the law is non existent. You think there were not several witnesses including the state police crash reconstruction team who would be called at a criminal trial as to the position of the vehicle in the right most lane of traffic? That there are no IDOT, Homeland Security or private security camera footage of the car's position or perhaps even the crash itself, coroner's reports including cause of death, listing of injuries, blood alcohol level and results of drug blood work of the victims, Fire Department investigators reports as to what in the victims trunk caused the vehicle to immediately turn into a fireball, etc. etc. etc. etc....part and parcel to the State's case, then you are obviously a weed smoker.
What you are TRYING to say is that their "alleged" occupations as taggers/defacers would not be allowed to be introduced at the CRIMINAL trial. And even THAT's not completely true if the States Attorney opens any door (line of questioning) for the defense to do so, they would be allowed to pursue that line of questioning. All of their past nonsense will be part of the depositions and motions and trial in the CIVIL trial. ALLLLLLLLLL OF IT!!!!!!!
The reason you will not answer the simple questions I posed to you is that you evidently feel a tad humiliated and in over your head, and I completely understand that, but, you were the one who wanted to talk the talk.
Now just "MAN UP", sew in a pair ( http://www.neuticles.com/sizing.php ), and walk your walk.
If you feel you are limited in your ability to conduct in rational discourse, then do not post a reply.
By refusing to answer my questions and making ridiculous excuses, you are OBVIOUSLY feeling that your points cannot be supported and that your argument has failed. I understand that, too.
Anything less than explaining YOUR position on EACH POINT I RAISED in a detailed, logical, reasonable and factual manner (remember READ each question 4 to 8 times before answering because you seem to want to talk a lot but end up responding with irrelevant non answers. BE PERTINENT. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.) will be interpreted as failure.
Don't humiliate yourself. Answer the questions.
Nobody likes a quitter. Man up. Answer the simple questions.
NOTE:
AGAIN, you claim WITHOUT VALIDATION that I have "impugned" the victims. Explain how I have done so by merely explaining a google search of the victim's (search AFROE EVOL, then search the victim's names) that provided links to hundreds of videotapes of the victim's and their alleged/purported criminal conduct including photographs, eyewitness accounts of the victim's close friends and co-offenders of the victim's alleged actions and behavior and the conclusion of how many misdemeanors and felonies they likely allegedly have committed, based on those links and a cursory knowledge of criminal law?
ALL of these pictures and videos and other evidence will be subpoenaed for the civil trial. Educate yourself.
No more attacks. You two clearly disagree here, but only one is making ad hominem attacks like "don't humiliate yourself."
This is a serious issue. I'm glad people are discussing it, but when it turns into personal attacks, there's no need for that.
Keep it civil.
Thanks for the caution, Brad.
And, thanks for your objectivity.
I certainly will.
As a matter of fact, I know he will never answer my questions so I, for one, will be done with this thread shortly.
Thanks for intervening, Brad. Not everyone recognizes the inappropriateness of ad hominem attacks.
I think this topic is about done so I don't really much more to say. I'm sorry this subject turned into such a downer.
I will reiterate that ideally Detective Frugoli will pick up the pieces and rededicate his life to contributing to society, in whatever manner possible, and learn from the experience. I would hope that his friends and family support him in coping realistically with what life hands him, just as we all should. I would hope that anyone anywhere that is having trouble coping realistically with life will seek help - and find it.
I hope to find some unique, fascinating, and POSITIVE Chicago stories to share in the future. We're here to create some sort of community and share interesting news and ideas, which hasn't been happening so much at this point in the discussion.
Hey, did you just add the grab bar at the bottom of the text window? It's VERY cool.
This topic IS done but I do think it was becoming more of a downer for Disaffected and less so for myself.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and such.
I truly enjoy this specific news and idea sharing and sort of community that we were able to engage in Disaffected and I think, for me, it's been a positive experience and definitely an interesting one.
I especially appreciate all your candor and honesty.
Oh yeah. that certainly is interesting, that grab bar at the bottom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xnZ6g14WwY
No more backpedaling. Just answer. These are not difficult questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54uLmZadzCA
The guys were a "nuisance" to the owners?
What, like mosquitoes or gas?
Thousand dollar plus at least damage for every large "nuisance" they "create" to be painted over.
I'd say MORE than a "nuisance". No?
Let me bill you monthly for a year at a thousand a crack.
Ya feels me? No? A renter or mommy basement dweller then perhaps? Ok. Understood.
Painting/damaging someone else's stuff doesn't BEGIN to register in people's brains until they OWN STUFF.
Everyone does stuff that's questionable?
Like what? Fifty misdemeanors and twenty felonies a year?
(And that's WAAAAAY conservative for this crew.)
People go to prison for ONE FELONY in Illinois with a record.
Everyone does that kinda questionable stuff?
I guess that depends on what kinda people you run with or think of as "everyone".
In the eyes of law they did get hit buy a drunk guy.
But "justice is about the whole truth and nothing but the truth" and some people want to pick and choose and isolate which "truths" regarding this incident are important.
I am merely saying they ALL are and nothing less will do.
That is the same justice I want for you as I want for me.
The tagging activities of these guys are irrelevant to the case. If they were parked in the middle of the Dan Ryan and sleeping on the roof, it would be irrelevant to this case. If they had 50 kilos of heroin in the trunk of the vehicle, it would be irrelevant to this case. If they were child molesters, it would be irrelevant to this case. In the eyes of the law, this is one case, and that other stuff is no case. The alleged perpetrators are dead. Capice?
Your opinion of what is relevant or irrelevant in this case (and I am under the opinion you referring to Frugoli's criminal case and not the civil case) is, unfortunately been proven by your other posts here to be completely irrelevant. Your grasp of reasonableness, reading comprehension and common sense have all become points for debate based on your preceding posts.
No offense intended.
Capisci?
The Union should have denied them this event. Let them hold their fundraiser for their criminal friend somewhere else. Having it at union facilities and hosting the message about it on their website gives a color of authority and support to the bad actor.
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