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Rogers Park Young Women's Action Team will not tolerate the harassment of women on public transportation. The group wants to meet with the CTA's board on how to handle harassment issues and improve safety.
Group Takes Stand Against Harassment on CTA
suntimes.com - 23 weeks ago - 501 views
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These women have a right to complain about men saying, "Hey, baby."
And the men have a right to say it.
If "Hey, baby" on the "L" is your biggest problem in life, this tells me either you've got a privileged life or you've got an issue for which you should be in therapy.
Do we want to create a society where men don't flirt and make advances on women in public?
Or are these women merely unhappy about the social status of the guys hitting on them?
You can't possibly be serious. No one has a right to harass anyone, and no one deserves to be sexually objectified as a consequence of riding public transit. There's a difference between flirtation and harassment, and unwelcome advances are unacceptable. Your patronizing attitude about this is pretty disturbing.
We need more men to wake up and start standing up against the day-to-day attacks that many women have to deal with. I think what YWAT is doing is fantastic, and we need more organizing like this.
It hasn't been updated as regularly as it could, but this blog has a similar impulse, and I think has interesting possibilities.
http://www.hollabackchitown.blogspot.com/
Have you ever witnessed this "problem" on the CTA?
Is there any data to support that this problem is more than one or two incidents a year for a small number of women?
How much harm is done to the "victims"?
What is the public policy fix to the "problem"?
And if a woman feels objectified by attention from a man is this her problem or his problem? Do you concede that some women feel objectified by male attention that 80+% of women are fine with?
Do we want to launch a public education campaign to keep a small number of women from getting unwanted attention from men that most women find normal and many women enjoy?
Is there any data to contradict the hypothesis that these women are manufacturing an issue so they can get a grant to do activism and go to women's conferences?
I've witnessed this problem on the CTA and other public venues all too often. It isn't a fluke, it's a daily occurrence and an unfortunate part of way too many people's lives. Harassment does real damage. Safety on public transit is a right, and we need to stop passively condoning this kind of behavior.
Most women don't enjoy being harassed, anyone who believes that is deluding themselves into rationalizing sexist behavior.
If a man is harassing a woman, that is HIS problem. HE is acting against her. The whole point is that harassment is unwelcome, aggressive, can be intimidating, and it is a form of violence.
And what the hell is this claim of yours that they are trying to scam someone to get grant funding. I know these folks, and the do incredible work.
Carl, you really need to do your homework on this, and also consider the perspective of a woman who has absolutely no idea of the intentions of someone harassing them, and under almost all circumstances does not want some random jerk on the train objectifying them. I'm hoping you're not one of those jerks.
Read these:
http://thegenderblenderblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/street-sexual-haras...
http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/2009/05/taking-back-public-transit-conf...
Frank wrote, "I've witnessed this problem on the CTA and other public venues all too often. It isn't a fluke, it's a daily occurrence...."
Would it be fair to say you witness this at least once a week?
Tell me about the four times in the last month you intervened to help some damsel in distress from unwanted sexual attention from a man on the CTA, RTA, et al.
Or didn't you do something about it?
you're missing the point. no one should need me or anyone else to save them. the fact that you're referring to a woman that does not want to be harassed as 'a damsel in distress' illustrates a paternalistic perspective that doesn't recognize that women can take care of themselves. women don't need me (or you for that matter) to save them, and all the people I've seen deal with this have handled it as well as it could be handled, by being vocal about what is going on and getting the hell away.
if folks have better ideas for how men can be supportive of women in these situations, it would be great to hear those ideas. I recommend these resources as a start (http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prevention/menagainstrape.html)
what we need is to better explain to folks like you that harassment is just that, harassment, and needs to stop. the point is that no one should have to deal with this.
And no one should smoke on CTA property.
People shouldn't put their bags on the seat when the train/bus is full.
No one should be panhandling on the train.
Frank, your answer seems to fit my experience. There's a small amount of people being rude on public transportation. Some of this is men being rude to women by being hamhanded in their flirting. The one case I witnessed was handled gracefully by the woman in question.
My points.
1. This happens very infrequently.
2. There are more important ways to improve the public transportation experience.
3. Even if there was consensus to "do something" it's not clear what could or should be done.
4. People who feel "objectified" and other bad things have some responsibility to not let random people get in their heads. People have to own how they feel about things that happen. Women who get offended whenever a guy is clumsy about flirting have internal work to do. We don't tell people with road rage that the solution to their problem is to keep anybody from driving rudely, do we?
1. It happens much more frequently than you claim
2. This is not about improving experience, this is about safety
3. The first thing that needs to be done, which is what YWAT is doing, is getting people to call harassment what it is and acknowledge that it is in fact a problem, something that you are denying.
4. You are blaming the victim. I recommend not doing that. Harassment is not flirting, it is about power and objectification.
i find your comparison of harassment to smoking and bags on the seats belittling toward people that have experienced harassment.
Show me the data.
Ask an open question of 350-400 public transportation users in the Chicago area, including the "L", CTA buses, PACE, Metra and South Shore. Ask them what they have personally experienced in the last year that has diminished the quality of their public transportation experiences.
If the data shows this is a problem, I will revisit the issue. Until someone has good data, I'm skeptical of anecdotes that aren't even consistent with themselves. You claim that this is a problem and frequent, but then you say the women always deal with it successfully and you've never felt the need to get involved.
As I had noted in my blog post about my friend who got molested, THAT was not flirting. It was molestation. There's a huge difference when someone starts to put their hands on your body versus verbalizing "something." WHAT they verbalize can also be an issue, if it is overtly degrading and lewd versus a fairly nuetral comment.
I doubt that this friend of mine is only one of "one or two" people who have experienced this: http://tamalechica.blogspot.com/2009/03/getting-molested-on-cta.html
Carl, the fact is women have a right to enjoy public space in the same way that men do - free from harassment, objectification and dirty remarks. It gets a hell of a lot worse than "Hey Baby." I, myself, and many of my close friends have been groped, pinched, had disgusting things said, been flashed and generally made to feel unsafe. I don't find these flattering - I find them scary, because if a man thinks it's okay to treat another human being and a total stranger this way, what else will he think it's okay to do?
Is it the worst thing that happens to women? No, but it's the root of it. And if women want to be treated as equals in the public sphere, it means we need to be able to speak out against men who treat us as less than equals.
Thanks, Frank, for being one of the many men that get it.
If you are sexually assaulted, use your mobile phone to take a picture of the perpetrator and call 911.
Physically contacting someone without their permission is already against the law.
If you want me to believe this is a problem, show me the data.
If you want to do something about it, explain the plan.
I'm not for manufacturing grudges based on unverified anecdotes.
There are a bunch of veterans who claim they were spit upon returning from Vietnam because that's what they believe happened. Guess what? Not one of these veterans mentioned this happening until the 1980s.
Show me the data. Let's survey a few hundred public transportation riders about things they've experienced that diminish the quality of their experience on public transportation.
If unwanted sexual advances or sexual assaults comes up #1 or #2 with female riders, then let's revisit the issue. But I predict that female riders will have mostly the same beefs as male riders and the bogeyman of bad men being crude with women is largely a propaganda construct.
read the article before you start spouting off
from the sun-times story
"They surveyed 639 CTA riders, mostly young women, and found that harassment on CTA buses and trains is pretty common.
Next month, the group hopes to meet with the CTA's board to talk about ways to improve safety -- and help women deal with unwanted attention.
"A lot of people don't realize that when they're getting catcalled or someone touches them in the wrong way, that's harassment," Matanmi said. "They think that's just part of their day."
Just over half of those surveyed said they'd been sexually harassed on the CTA. Thirteen percent said they'd been sexually assaulted."
If an anti-abortion group--a group actively looking for a grant--did a survey about abortion, how much stock would you put in it?
This stinks of manufacturing an identity politics issue. Let's have an independent group do a survey of public transportation riders on all issues. Prediction: women are going to have largely the same frustrations as men and this unwanted flirting is going to be a minor issue.
If women really are being groped regularly, the solution is not some touchy-feely public education, but women taking pictures of the perpetrators and calling 911.
If the women don't want to call 911, I fully support creating a system that allows people to send 911 complaints by text. I think this would be good on the CTA. When a few people are causing trouble, someone can notify the cops without drawing attention to themselves.
you are the problem carl. men like you who do not believe women when they tell you that harassment is harassment, and don't believe it when they tell you that it is a problem, are exactly what has to change.
i again recommend you read the article to look at what these folks are suggesting before you start talking about it.
There's room for disagreement on even this. No need to go after the guy.
Well Carl...let me inform you that I have been to many of the YWAT's events and they are a wonderful group of young women. They are not doing this for a grant. In fact, they have been around for six years now and their budget is I'm sure bigger than anything you may make in three years. May I also point out that they did the research before they decided to take on this issue.
You sound really ignorant and in fact you need to do a little research yourself. Maybe you would sound a little more educated when talking about this issue.
The girls are having an event on June 27th at Berger Park and since you want to hear about the research I'm sure you will attend right?
Editor's note: Edited to remove personal attacks.
If they've got a budget that's good sized that means they've gotten grants in the past.
And if they've gotten grants in the past for doing identity politics that means they need to look for new issues so they can get new grants.
Keep it cool everyone. This is a touchy issue. No drama, just discussion/links/info/etc.
Sorry Brad!
Just keep it cool people. There are lots of places online where folks can go after eachother about local stuff, Topix, ChicatoTribune.com. The Citizen is a place for informed, level-headed discussion about the best local stuff on the web. We all think Chicago's awesome. That's why we're here.
Oh sorry...I'll be cool from now on!
Alright people. I'm going to close this thread down now. I don't see any new information being added to flesh out the story but more and more noise This has been an interesting thread that has me thinking a good bit about moderation and commenting guidelines etc. Thank you.